It's a good email...
Hello Mike,
Please, allow me to remind you: "Haver" British usage: "to hem and haw." Scottish: "to maunder, to talk foolishly, to chatter, talk nonsense, to babble." Jewish: "a friend, chum, mate" - specifically someone willing to partner with you in grappling with truth and Word and life. Yep, I'm setting a high bar here... " I confess, out of everyone you were the man I felt I could speak to and talk with about hard sayings. Today, I must attest to the continued un-soundness I see in your reasoning at your blog. I am amazed at your gross errors as well as your refusal to engage others in debate about what you yourself have publically said. I am wondering why you never answer anyone on your blog who has challenged your words (like Concerned Citizen) or themselves made gross doctrinal errors(like Val). After all you are a pastor......aren't you?
It’s a good email from someone I won’t name, someone who knows where I am, has the number, is probably no more than a fifteen minute drive away, if that, but who has refused thus far to come over and allow a face-to-face discussion and exchange to take place – and I’m offering to buy him a cup of coffee, no less!
But it’s a great email.
It points out the context in which cyperspace interaction ultimately has to connect if it’s to be healthy. When blogging and Facebooking and emailing is done in the context of face-to-face relationship and exchanges, it can be healthy and add to those growing relationships and to a mutually shared journey of truth and faith.
Without it, it can degenerate into little more than anonymous sniping behind screen names and avatars.
It’s a great email because it offers a wonderful opportunity for truly defining this fine art of “havering.”
Havering – chattering and babbling and grappling with truth – is ultimately and ideally intended for a face-to-face setting between people who love God and truth and each other enough to actually take time to see one another and then really hear one another, thus providing the opportunity to learn from one another.
What I love about blogging this past year is the number of face-to-face conversations and discussions it has stimulated and occasioned. Conversations digging into the Word, give-and-take, iron-sharpening-iron type of conversations. What has been the greatest challenge for me has been monitoring comments. I just haven’t been able too. Some of my face-to-face conversations have referenced online conversations in the comments – which has been cool to hear about! I love that people are interacting there, but my involvement in three weekly small groups and daily conversations in the bookstore or at Starbucks (or wherever) leave me little margins for hunting for conversations among online comments that are often by anonymous people who don’t identify themselves. Whatever works for them – but I think I’ll keep choosing to invest in the face-to-face interactions – and in time actually reading the Bible and communing with the Father! For me it literally comes down to that choice.
So do I set up the blog without comments? I could figure out how to remove that feature, I suppose, but evidently some do enjoy grappling there, so I suppose I’ll leave it as is for the time being and risk the accusations of not caring about God and truth. Accusation is bad havering anyway. I suppose that’s why the enemy of all our souls is called the Accuser! Christ in us calls us higher and deeper.
So no, don’t expect me to frequent the comments. If you are commenting there to get a rise out of me or to correct me, you best email me (mike.freeman@vineyardboise.org) and then we can see about pursuing further conversation – which would hopefully be face to face if possible – and I’m buying the coffee! I feel no need to monitor the comments for gross errors – others are evidently doing that plenty already, and I’ll leave that business in their most capable hands – and in the hands of the Holy Spirit!
I will continue to choose the better part.
Stoma pros stoma.
That’s what the apostle John calls it. It literally means “mouth to mouth,” but we usually translate it in "paraphrases passing for Scripture these days" face to face.
The two shortest letters in the New Testament, in fact, the two shortest books in the entire Bible, were written by John the Beloved who made a quick end of those letters with the sentiment along these lines: “Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink. Instead I hope to come to you and talk face to face (stoma pros stoma), so that our joy may be complete.”
Now there’s an attitude and heart to download!
About half the New Testament (actually, the half I’ve memorized over the past 30 years) is letters (wish I’d chosen the Gospels instead back in the late 70’s!). Letters that were written, for the most part, because Paul or Peter or James or John or whoever couldn’t be there in person. They wished they could be – witness Paul’s angst over the Galatians: “Brothers, how I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!”
Writing such letters was a necessity due to the writer’s physical absence – but the writing was nearly always preceded and followed up by personal, face-to-face interaction and fellowship.
To settle for anything less – or worse, to choose pen and ink or keyboard and comments – over face-to-face interaction is not only bad form and bad havering.
It is perhaps the grossest error of all.
Mike, (1 of 2)
ReplyDeleteI’m taking a risk here by commenting on this post, but I think that I have a good reason to. I am not the one who sent you that email, however I have met with you personally on several occasions about these type of issues and have even called you on the phone. After one such occasion of meeting with you, you told me that the Lord gave you a picture of me: “I was one of Joab and Abner’s men fighting, grabbing each other each by their hair and plunging their swords into their guts and falling down dead” -2 Samuel 2. When I confronted you on it, you said that “if that doesn’t apply to me, don’t receive it” (which begs the question: If it was from the Lord why shouldn’t it apply to me; if it wasn’t, why did you say it was?). If I thought that there was a possibility of changing your mind I would meet with you, and if there is some indication given by you I would jump at the opportunity. ...continued...
(2 of 2)
ReplyDeleteIt is kind of ironic though that you go on to say that you have no time to reply to comments because of your busy schedule (which I don’t doubt), but then you go on to email the gentlemen back (you cc’d me) and then posted a whole blog of how you don’t have time to correct people, all while the other errors of denying hell still go unanswered. I’m really sad for that. My hope at this point is that some of your readers would start to question the words that are coming from this blog. No doubt you are a brilliant man who has mastered both Greek and Hebrew (something I would love) and have spent most of your life seeking to pastor people. I admire those things about you. However in Titus 2:2 the admonition for older men is to remain “sound in faith, in love and perseverance.” There seems to be an unsoundness in your communication with truth lately and I’m writing this in the spirit of kindness and gentle correction hoping that the Lord would grant you repentance--2 Tim 2:25. If anyone who is reading this thinks that I am being otherwise, I would implore you to lovingly correct me.
"If I thought that there was a possibility of changing your mind I would meet with you"
ReplyDeleteThen why post here Josh? If you don't believe that meeting in person would have any effect then what in the world makes you think a blog comment would do it?
You and Dan demanded a response from Mike and he gave it. Where is the irony in that? It would be best if you honored his request to take any further issues up in person.
Fascinating. No one has yet to speak to the issue which sparked such heated exchange! I am reminded of the Battle of Bull Run where the Northerners came down with their top hats, crumpets, and parasols to "watch the little rebel band get tossed". Instead of a super-duper hoorah! the army got crushed while the onlookers were scattered by rushing Southern calvary.
ReplyDeleteIn the same way, we stand here discussing semantics and civil debate all the while allowing heresy to abound and those influenced by it to drown.
Guys, hell is very real. Do not let anyone tell you different. All sinners not under the covering of Christ will also be with God, however they will be with Him under His uneneding wrath. Hell is not the absence of God, it is the presence of His wrath. Hell is also a good idea, know why? God never has bad ideas.
Josh made a very clear and Christian post and has not been responded to yet, except for a ridiculous whimper of nonsense by an unknown person. Anonymous, Mike has not yet said one wmind is indeed a strong motivation to speak to them and unlike many today I will boldly pronounce this gospel-led mission. I am here to change your mind if you are in error. If God does this it will be done, if not, it won't. This does not change the method in which we deliver the gospel, and it does not mean we compromise truth for the sake of unity. This is why it is so disgusting to see a lack of engagement in forums like these. I know this is hard for many to understand, but let me explain....Apologetics need audiences. You see, while I agree that cyberspace can be a bad place for discussion, my reason would be that people are unable to process information and only think, write, and speak in blurbs. (Not too mention rampant post-modern views and reletavism pervade the majority and negate many logical pleas to truth. I endeavour to persuade people to the truth just like Josh made mention of. So in the case of a blog, it is quite apparent to me and to others that one should do all in his power to engage in public debate every chance he gets and to the degree that others are watching and reading. One should certainly monitor for floundering brethren as well as outright false conversions who are frequenting the blog and commenting in hopes of PERSUADING THEM TO THE TRUTH. An audience of readers is a huge plus as people witness what it means to sacrifice nothing for truth and to glorify God.
continued.....
Tact is important, so is Christian compassion. However, let us not forget that Christ used cutting remarks many times. Also, if you care to read all of Paul's epistles then you will see scathing rebuke and loud, sarcastic calls to sound doctrine and right theology. Most people reading this have doctrine that is man-centered, therefore it is difficult for you to perceive the sovereign free grace of God. God has done it all once and for all He has chosen. Without His divine election would no soul be saved. This free grace motivates one to proclaim the full gospel in the face of total opposition as well as call heresy what it is.
ReplyDeleteI am aware that Mr. Freeman is a word-master and I too respect him for that. I even enjoyed a couple of his posts, however I implore you who read his writings here to think again about what he is musing upon. He said that I was policing his blog for him which is absurd and completely untrue. I hadn't been to his blog for months and then I heard of the severe heretical statement he made about hell so I checked it out. Notice, that my first comment under that post was to Val and not Mike. The point is that doctrine and theology are the roots of everything else. There is an extreme mystical element to this blog and i could go on about why, but I won't. If Mike read these comments I would exhort him to teach those who are reading it by sound doctrine!! That is his job! His subtle remark about accusing being the attribute of Satan. I don't know what he is talking about, unless he is accusing me of something. What is happening is a judgement is being leveled at Mike and it regards his statement about hell. Let's remember.....
1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
I am the one who wrote the e-mail that Mike has made public. I enjoy debate and would love to sit down with him. I am glad Mike has a blog, and a Cinegogue blog, and three home groups, and conversations at corporate Starbucks, and wherever else and whatever else he is and has!! Yea!! Yea I say!! It just is so perplexing to me that he can't take two minutes to explain his statement questioning the doctrine of hell. Why?
Let me tell you something.....while you whittle the time away wondering what it all means and discovering the secret sayings of Jesus, and looking for God in the movies, and exploring the mystery of post-modernism, and delving into the wonder of the new, up and coming mystics like Bell, and McLaren, and Rohr, and Peterson, and N.T. Wright, and Todd Hunter, and spending your time soaking in the filth of the Shack....or worse yet, watching others do it and saying nothing while you know better....The Glory of God will have passed you by.
Read Jude
a wretch in His Grace,
Dan
correction in above post....(Mike has not yet said one word in defense of his own heretical statemet or to Val who is obviously drowning in apostasy.)
ReplyDeleteListen to me, the ultimate agenda is that God would be glorified. The penultimate agenda is to persuade men to truth.
ReplyDeleteWow Mike, the passions you have inflamed. :)
ReplyDeleteJosh (and partner in crime Dan) –
ReplyDeleteI wish you’d stop being such a weanie and would just pick up your phone and call me, or even drop by the bookstore like you used to. That’s what friends would do just out of common courtesy. But instead you leave comments after a post that specifically says, “Guys, I don’t have margins to cruise these comment sections, but you know where I am, call me! Email me!” But instead you post comments in a place where you know I am not, for “whoever may be reading this” - how much risk is that, I mean really! Pretty weanie…
I appreciate your concern for me – and really appreciate your prayers. Lord knows I need them constantly. I have no doubt there is unsoundness in my communication of truth – the fact is you are too kind in that assessment, and are worse off than I’m afraid you are if you don’t realize how equally much that assessment applies to you and Dan and whoever else opens their mouth to utter the precious things of God. “When words are many, sin is not absent.” And you and Dan (especially Dan!) are both way ahead of me on the word count so you can do the math on the resulting sin level of your own.
Josh, you step out in great boldness to say “there seems to be unsoundness” in my communication. Admitted – sometimes a whole lot more so upon reflection than others. If you want to be more specific, feel free to be, and I’ll consider it and either stand corrected or say, “I don’t think so Josh,” or “Get over it, Josh” or “Don’t you have something better to do, Josh?” Your job isn’t to change my mind, dude. That’s the Lord’s job. Read the Scripture again that you quoted for me. Your job is to be a true friend in Christ to one who has been your pastor and friend in times past. Take the greater risk of doing that or you’re just wasting your time and mine and mucking things up even more.
One more thing Josh. About the young men at the pool in 2 Samuel 2. Since you interpreted my effort to be kind as equivocation (forgive me that wrong!), let me be clear now. Absolutely I see that picture as applying to you – or even more so the immediate scene following. I see you and Dan as twin Asahel’s “swift of foot running wildly like a gazelle,” spoiling for a fight, chasing down your own brothers. I’m just praying you don’t end up impaled on the butt of your own arguments one day. Dan, this especially applies to you. You are learning, but still a neophyte, and you are speaking too much and way beyond yourself. You come off in written dialogue as rude, combative, and hostile. Pretty much the opposite of Christlike. I weary of believers with impetuous lips hiding behind Jesus’ whip of cords in the temple, saying “Hey, I’m just cleaning house like Jesus did!” You would do well to leave the whip in His hands (especially since it’s His house), particularly when it comes to your own brothers. Hell is also for those who beat on and abuse their fellow servants (do you need the reference on that?). It would be wisdom, new convert of Calvin, to go back into that box for another year or so – or to keep your mouth more in its box and your ears more open, particularly when addressing an older brother who was where you are now thirty years ago both in his youthful zeal and in his married life.
You two seem to play the “good cop, bad cop” routine, at least in this comment stream (you can guess which is which). You come off as self-appointed guardians of truth, identifying and dispatching heresy and heretics in blogland (in a single bound, no doubt!), in cyberspace, and on college campuses too! Zeal is commendable, but if you fail to see how ridiculous you really are along with the rest of us and don’t get off of your doctrinal high horse, you will only make greater the fall later. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.
Is this clear enough?